This is what happens if you make farming threads in the wrong forum

[Arkantos]

I don't know if you're serious or if you're a troll, but don't post your griefing builds, they lead to people bashing you.

[The Color Of Hope]

hello, me and my friend have been running 600/smite build for a while and been saving up some money,

I'm wondering if its faster to run the good old 55/SS build, I mean does it even work I though there was an AoE nerf or something along those lines

or is there anything even faster than 55/SS

any help appriciated thanks in advanced

[Asha Rai]

It depends on the area. Generally 600/smite can go many places a 55 can't, but can go most places a 55 can (off the top of my head i can't think of anywhere a 55 can go that a 600 can't). Depending on the area, one or the other may be faster. The main pro of a 55 is that it can solo; although solo 600 builds are also possible.

So first question, where are you farming?

[big bubba]

If you are farming UW or FoW then 600/smite is faster. if u are wanting to solo UW or FoW then i would say go with the good old 55 monk. 1 more good thing about 600/smite is if prot spirit wears off you dont have to worry about getting 1 shot. its more like 2 shot.

[Avarre]

Originally Posted by Asha Rai

It depends on the area. Generally 600/smite can go many places a 55 can't, but can go most places a 55 can (off the top of my head i can't think of anywhere a 55 can go that a 600 can't).

The two use almost the same skills to stay alive, only a 55 has the added bonus of relatively massive health regen (not that it matters under SoA), as well as being able to use SH. 600s are no more survivable than 55s.

Smite is better for HM because of the AI scatter. I prefer SS everywhere else, because afk'ing for smite is boring, and killing caster mobs slowly off their wand hits is equally so.

[R.Shayne]

I prefer the 600 / Smite because I run 2 computer / 2 Accounts. A 55/SS build is possible but too many time in HM I have restarted because the SS was killed.

[Asha Rai]

Originally Posted by Avarre

The two use almost the same skills to stay alive, only a 55 has the added bonus of relatively massive health regen (not that it matters under SoA), as well as being able to use SH. 600s are no more survivable than 55s.

A 55 uses prot spirit and regen or constant dmg reduction to stay alive. A 55 using regen to stay alive can tank a limited number of foes, and is extremely susceptible to degen. With the nerf to mystic regen, its hard to get over 11 regen (and doing so will use up valuable skill slots and attributes) so poison + burning on a 55 will typically mean death. A 55 relying only on dmg reduction will die to degen (and quickly). Life steal will typically kill a 55 immediately.

A 600 relies on prot spirit, spirit bond and soa to stay alive. In the absence of excessive interrupts, enchant removal and excessive lag (things which also kill a 55), a 600 can tank a limitless number of foes. Excessive life steal will kill a 600 (4 mobs with nightmare weapon in hard mode for instance), as can a lot of mobs all not hitting over 60 damage. A 600 will typically have 700 or so health, so a 600 can pretty much ignore degen.

In my opinion a 600 has far more survivability than a 55. (Try taking a 55 into COF).

[Avarre]

Originally Posted by Asha Rai

A 55 uses prot spirit and regen or constant dmg reduction to stay alive. A 55 using regen to stay alive can tank a limited number of foes, and is extremely susceptible to degen. With the nerf to mystic regen, its hard to get over 11 regen (and doing so will use up valuable skill slots and attributes) so poison + burning on a 55 will typically mean death. A 55 relying only on dmg reduction will die to degen (and quickly). Life steal will typically kill a 55 immediately.

55 can use SoA + SH to have permanent damage reduction. They can tank a limitless number of foes.

55 can use SB/DF bonus along with HB to completely counter degen in heavy degen areas.

55 can have permanent SB or swap to 105 to survive Life Steal, as the damage reduction outweighs the necessity of regen. This can also be done to get more out of SB/DF to counter degen.

The two builds use almost identical skills. The only benefit of going 600 is for full smite damage, aside from that is is far more effective to have the same skills on a lower-health template.

[Numa Pompilius]

@Avarre: Could you post your 55 build? I've used 55 and a 600+smite, and to me Asha Rais comments seem pretty dead-on. Just curious what your build is that you're not sensitive to degen & that you don't get overwhelmed if you face dozens of enemies at once.

[Asha Rai]

Originally Posted by Avarre

55 can use SoA + SH to have permanent damage reduction. They can tank a limitless number of foes.

55 can use SB/DF bonus along with HB to completely counter degen in heavy degen areas.

55 can have permanent SB or swap to 105 to survive Life Steal, as the damage reduction outweighs the necessity of regen. This can also be done to get more out of SB/DF to counter degen.

The two builds use almost identical skills. The only benefit of going 600 is for full smite damage, aside from that is is far more effective to have the same skills on a lower-health template.

Constant dmg reduction requires 3 skills (prot spirit, soa and shielding hands), At the cost of a skill slot and 5 points in healing prayers (plus 3 from sup rune) will get you 7 regen, so now a 55 can survive some burning. Add in some bleeding, and not even full points in healing prayers will cut it. You need mending. Now if you get any more degen at all you are pretty much screwed. In shards of orr for instance, I've counted over well over 20 degen on my character at once.

A 600 uses only 3 skills to survive, and all from the same attribute. This leaves a lot of flexibility. To be fair though, blessed aura is required to tank infinite foes, so points in divine favor are necessary. This is typically ok, since harder areas require spell breaker.

With respects to life steal, a 105 monk facing a foe wielding a nightmare weapon in hard mode will loose 67 health from the first hit, dropping hp down to 38. Assuming 7 regen and no degen at all, it will take 4.8 seconds to regen all that health back. After 1.5 seconds, they will have 59 health due to regen, but they will die due to the second hit from nightmare weapon. The only way to survive is to get lucky with a divine favor heal.

[Avarre]

@Avarre: Could you post your 55 build? I've used 55 and a 600+smite, and to me Asha Rais comments seem pretty dead-on. Just curious what your build is that you're not sensitive to degen & that you don't get overwhelmed if you face dozens of enemies at once.

Cerb's UW thread.

Constant dmg reduction requires 3 skills (prot spirit, soa and shielding hands)

SoA/PS + Blessed Aura (which you generally have for extended/permanent SB in areas like FoW or UW). SH is not a requirement, but an option. In areas where damage reduction is all that is needed (smite runs) you can swap in SH over something else for additional safety.

Take into account that a 55 has full flexibility of their health because the skills on their bar are pretty much the same as a 600, but don't require the high health for smite. There's no reason they can't bring SB in an area that has heavy life steal and swap armor sets for that mob. You might say that this no longer counts as 55ing, and I won't stop you. It's still a capability of the character build.

This isn't so much a 55v600 debate as a smite vs non debate because no monk would run 600hp without smite. You'd have more survivability with lower health, since once you're past 200-300 nothing is going to degen/lifesteal you instantly and you get around 300% of the damage back from a SB heal.

[Asha Rai]

Divine favor heals are useful if you're tanking one to perhaps four mobs, but increase that and divine favor heal becomes largely irrelevant. And you avoid the fundamental problem I have with 55 survivability, which is degen. Unlike lifesteal, degen is prevalent in the vast majority of areas in gw. A 55 can deal with only a certain amount of degen, but at a cost.

I'm not saying 55's are bad, far from it. They have their place, but there are simply some places they can't go. This weighs heavily in the 600 vs 55 debate. In terms of smite vs non-smite, the biggest advantage of 600-smite is you can't mess up agro. Again the importance of this is zone dependent, because the ai of some mobs is harder to manage than the ai of others.

[Avarre]

Originally Posted by Asha Rai

Divine favor heals are useful if you're tanking one to perhaps four mobs, but increase that and divine favor heal becomes largely irrelevant. And you avoid the fundamental problem I have with 55 survivability, which is degen. Unlike lifesteal, degen is prevalent in the vast majority of areas in gw. A 55 can deal with only a certain amount of degen, but at a cost.

Pretty much all problems of degen are solved by the same thing as lifesteal - swapping up, having HB, and using DF or SB for heals. Granted, this isn't going to really work well while solo farming due to bar size issues - it's definitely a 2-man group tactic. This is also only a conditional degen issue, as monks in general can bring infinite-duration Spellbreaker.

In terms of smite vs non-smite, the biggest advantage of 600-smite is you can't mess up agro. Again the importance of this is zone dependent, because the ai of some mobs is harder to manage than the ai of others.

That's a point, though I do like taking down all 18 Terrorwebs from the Ice King quest in a few seconds with SS after positioning them properly.

[Shadow Own]

55 has far more expensive armor

5 sup runes and offhand of about 5 k makes bout 8-10 k

600 armor.. maybe 1 sup and no weapons are REQUIRED

[Asha Rai]

Originally Posted by Shadow Own

600 armor.. maybe 1 sup and no weapons are REQUIRED

20% enchant weapon is required.

[Songbringer]

Originally Posted by Shadow Own

55 has far more expensive armor

5 sup runes and offhand of about 5 k makes bout 8-10 k

600 armor.. maybe 1 sup and no weapons are REQUIRED

The sup runes are all cheap. Minor divine is more exspensive(or it was when I made both my armor sets). The offhand can't be counted into the price because it is a quest reward. Thus if you are to lazy to do the quest then thats your fualt. With the defualt of you don't own prophecies and have no prophecies chars to do it. 600 runs no sup and a 20% enchant is req for soa.

Edit:

If you are going to bother doing the ice king quest. Here is what you do. Run 55/ss take 2 rangers with you. Charge them 10-20k(thats range ive made off the run in past couple weeks) each. Go get the spider in the town and from the ice king quest. Thus netting you each some added gold. Make sure they both know they have to drop ectos/golds/anything else you want. Make sure they pay you right before they cap the spider(before you make the spider spawn). Do this in normal mode

If you don't want to do that(aren't skilled enough). Then run the 600/smite with a hero and clear out the smites for your ectos. You don't have to rely on the a partner and positioning on your hero is simple. You can figure out where to flag him exactly after 2-3 run. You can kill the coldfires if you really need to but they are all avoidable if you do it right. Do this in hard mode.

I find running mantra for anti rupt on the 600 optional slot is best choice.

[cerb]

It is up to personal preference whether to run 600/smite or 55/SS. Really.

If you want to lengthen your e-peen and play HM, pick 600.
If you wanna do something else meanwhile (i.e.: read a book, write a book, cook, do homework), pick 600. (also applies for your partner)
If you don't like to think, pick 600.
If your partner is new to GW, pick 600.
If you have a pet monkey, pick 600 and teach him to smite.
If you want to think you are good, pick 600.

@Arguments about expansiveness: Bullshit. Yes, you need a -50 cesta. But you can get one for free by doing the quest, which isn't too hard considering it's a lvl 8-10 area and you're level 20, and have heroes. Still, if you have problems completing it, I suggest dropping the 55 idea and play 600 instead. As for runes, during Prophecies, each of them costed 20K+ each, and starting to 55 could be quite an investment. But now that they're not even worth 1K anymore, it is quite pathetic to use that as an argument. And the 600 needs equipment too (weapon, runes, insignias). And no 55 doesn't have "far more expansive armor". You can buy the same armor a 600 would, as long as you put runes in it.

@Lifesteal: More bullshit. Yes, it goes through Protective Spirit. But guess what? There's this thing they called "adaptation" which is like, the reason why the human species survived, or so I have heard. "Adaptation" as in, when there's a problem you find a solution, you know? Bone Pits in UW is full of Life Steal and enchantment removal. Did that prevent me from clearing it with 55? Yes. I said goodbye to UW and never attempted it again.

NOT. I just thought "hey, i'll just use constant SB." And before that, I thought "hey, i'll just make my hp a little higher." You know?

In fact, most of what Asha Rai said is BS. If 600 "needs 3 skills to survive", then so does 55 (PS + HB + SoA). Both need Balt's Spirit and will take Blessed Aura. Now you could say "but the Smiter can take that". That is right. However, 600 requires a lot more energy (Spirit Bond = 10 mana and runs out very quickly), so they will take Essence Bond, whereas 55 doesn't need it. Against a large amount of foes, both builds will do good on energy with Balts Only. However, against smaller groups, 600 would run out and 55 could drop either Breeze or SoA (Breeze will last 22-23s anyways), or even just heal himself with Protective Spirit only. "The biggest advantage of 600 is that you can't mess up aggro"? Are you serious? Are you just trying to find arguments to put 55 down? Like I said earlier, 600 is zombie, brainless farming. You just press 3 buttons at intervals, you don't even have to look at the screen. A player with a minimal amount of skill and knowledge of the game will know how to position foes so that SS damages the whole mob.

There are counters to degen, just like there are counters to life steal or enchantment removal. And CoF is definately doable as 55 HP, but it was popularized as a 600 area because people like to be fed builds and not think of things themselves, and it turns out that 600 is the perfect build for that.

[Magikarp]

whoa relax cerb lol

[Asha Rai]

Originally Posted by cerb

long post

Sorry cerb, you are responsible for some great hero builds being popular, and I respect that. But in this case, a lot of what you are saying is wrong.

Not sure why you brought up epeen or monkeys, but I pretty sure it has nothing to do with the topic.

The choice between 55 and 600 comes down to location, and whether I have a farming partner handy. Some locations _cannot_ be 55/whatevered compared to 600/smite. Some locations are more efficient with 600/smite. And for the record, I 55'ed before I played with a 600, and I farmed with a 600 long before it became popular via wiki etc. I still play both.

I said a 600 needs 3 skills to survive, but I also said a 55 needs just ps and regen / and / or dmg reduction. That is a fair comparison. That they both need energy is obvious. A 600 can tank one foe all day long. Spirit bond = 10 energy, but you get 20 energy returned from the 10 hits it heals you for.

And aggro management _is_ an issue in certain areas. I experimented with a build based on smite hex and smite condition and soj being used on a 600 tank in shards of orr, but the ai there has a bad habit of often switching agro from tank to the other monk when the monk approaches (and incidentally is still out of range).

On the topic of degen, can you list some counters? You can propose things like "energy deny the mesmers so they can't cast conjure phantasm", but that is just nit picking, and doesn't change the fact that 55's are susceptible to degen. The only reasonable counter I can think of was mystic regen, but that is no longer viable.

And it sounds like your answer to dealing with life steal is to make your life higher than 55. Which is kindov my original point.

As for expensiveness, agreed, setting up either build is cheap.

Like I said I have nothing at all against 55's. I use them all the time for farming. But imo there are some things a 55 can't do. There are some things a 55 can do with great difficulty that a 600 can do with ridiculous ease. And there is more to gw than UW. Prove me wrong and take me for a 55 run through shards of orr, and I will admit you can do things with a 55 I can only dream of. Otherwise just acknowledge that a 600 is just good for some things a 55 isn't.

Finally, you spend half the post trying to insult people who 600 (monkeys, epeen, new players, bad players who wanna look good, zombie brainless farming). It doesn't do you much credit.

[cerb]

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Regen/D...uick_reference

I'm not looking for credit, and I'm not insulting anyone, just stating some facts. Can a smiter be good or bad? No, because he just sits there doing nothing. If that is not brainless, I wonder what it is.

As for epeen, just look at farming forum threads. In every thread where a build/guide is posted, you will always find a few "can you do this in HM?" stupid replies where people don't even bother thinking if it would work/how/what to change in HM. So yeah I'm guessing farming in HM makes them feel like they are better. It's just different (and worse imho), at least UW (I don't play much aside from uw).